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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:02 pm
Posts: 18
the crystal receivers I've seen a very beautiful..amazing craftsmanship, and inventive use of materials both new and re-purposed.

I notice very few enclosures; most sets are ectomorphic. Is this the choice of the builder, or do sets operate their best when nothing separates components from the air?

or, is this true of coils in particular? Or, once gnd and antenna have shipped signal to the coils, does it matter where they are?

I've read that variable capacitors' performance degrades with dust accumulation. This suggests that enclosing them is best.

Thanks for any clarification on these questions!


T


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:21 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Hey Thump,

Strictly in THEORY (here we go with THIS gain), radios like lots of air for the components to "breathe".

But IMHO it also depends on what TYPE of radio it is. A very high end 660/46 litz radio may not "like" having it's coils crammed into really tight quarters.You MIGHT be able to hear the difference.

But a medium ,or especially beginners grade, radio may not be OVERLY effected IF the coils DO have "some " room within the cabinet ( the more the better).

All of these are just rough guidelines and my opinions.

As for var caps, it's true that dust "could " effect them. Again, whether you'd be able to hear it, I'm not sure.Covered should be better or least "Dust Off" sprayed now and again.

FWIW ,my BEST sets had the var caps enclosed in primarily (sheet) styrene cabinets. But the var caps DID have ample room within these cabinets,especially on the top, bottom, rear and sides.The fronts tended to be closer toward the inside of the front panel of the for convenience of tuning shaft exiting. But the big litz coils were out in plenty of free air in every axis.Much of the space in my projects (ie on radio baseboards or on the operating desk) is taken up for allowing coil movement and/ or airspace.

I would go nuts standing all conductors on ceramic stand off insulators well away from any surfaces. Var caps stood on ceramic pillars and were totally electrically isolated from contact with ANY other surface.Tuning shafts had insulators.Coil forms (if used) were "Swiss cheese" drilled and carefully sanded smooth to reduce form mass (and therefore, form loss). All coils, formless or formed,stood high on ceramic.

In a nut shell everything is well into free air (ESPECIALLY COILS!) and is well insulated.

I'm not saying everyone should go this crazy. But (not to toot my own horn, but..) these sets worked VERY well,probably within the top 15 or 20% of all the other sets I've seen built by others. As you get closer to the "top end" of performance, squeezing out those last few nano watts starts to become harder and harder. As you get REALLY close to the top, IMHO you start to hit wall of diminishing returns when comparing the extra efforts put in vs. any noticeable new results. But by then you've already got a VERY good working radio, so..

K


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:03 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Villach, Austria
Hi T,

a good question and a fact I wonder about very often as well.

Personally, I prefer closed boxes to keep dust etc. out. I did measure the Q factor of air varaible capacitors before and after cleaning which often multiplied the Q value from poor to good/excellent values. I also tested reults before/after cleaning in a reasonable advanced setup (good litz coils, appropriate diode and AF matching transformer, S/P headphones) and use of a clean variable diddefinitely improve the selectivity.

However, it is also a truth that all kind of good air coils using litz wire will be affected by material around, unfortunately not to its best. You need to keep enough free space around the coils or choose better materials for your enclosure which does only slightly affect the Q of your expensive litz wire coil. Polypropylen or Polystyrene (uncolored!) are quit good choices here while PVC, acryl glas, wood, cardboard etc. are not suited. Ofcourse it might be hard to impossible to make a nice, old-looking crystal radio while using Polypropylen :-( As often everyone has to find its personal compromise depending on the own wishes.

To get some impression of the influence of different materials, I would recommend (as often) Dick Kleijers website who did a lot of experiments and measurements on that topic as well (section "Experiments with LC circuits" part1-10) and really made an excellent job in my point of view:
http://www.crystal-radio.eu/

Good luck
Brösel


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Location: South Florida
thumper wrote:
I notice very few enclosures; most sets are ectomorphic. Is this the choice of the builder, or do sets operate their best when nothing separates components from the air?

All substances have a quality called dielectric constant. A coil in free space, far from any other matter, will have a higher Q than one in proximity to other objects. The inverse-square law is in effect here: Doubling the distance between the coil and other objects reduces the effect by the square of 2.

The Q-spoiling effect of adjacent matter depends on its dielectric constant. A 4- by 4-inch piece of aluminum two inches from the coil will have a greater effect than a piece of Lucite the same distance away.

Variable capacitors with ceramic insulation perform better than those with Bakelite or plastic insulation, due to reduced leakage resistance. If you place a shield or cover too near the capacitor, you may introduce a secondary leakage path. If you're using an inexpensive cap, the effect will be less measurable.

In the case of a set like Mike Tuggle builds, I suspect he either puts it in a box when not in use, or covers it some other way, only exposing it when he's listening. As krystallo noted, dust on the plates of a variable cap will reduce leakage resistance. For Mike's sets, which are built on separate boards, being able to see the components must help when moving them around.

Then there's the aesthetic experience. Many of us, who are less skilled and patient than Mike, use enclosures so we don't have to look at the haywire. :oops:

For a beginner's set, where you're using less-than-best components, this is not so important, as the components themselves set the upper limit for performance. At the higher levels of crystal-set design you have to resort to extreme measures to gain any further improvement in performance.

73,

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:27 pm 
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thank you for the thorough and excellent answers and explanations...

I just found this table after some googling..might be useful to others..I know it will be to me.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/dieconstantstable.html


T


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:03 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Villach, Austria
Maybe this old discussion might also be interesting for you. Did a while for me to remember it...
http://theradioboard.com/rb/viewtopic.php?t=1557&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Brösel


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:48 am
Posts: 1166
Location: Western Washington State
Thumper,

If you have a gorgeous hot-rod, with an engine that looks and acts
spectacular. . .You just don't put a hood on it.

I think this just about sums up, the reasons for the lack of
enclosures, to some degree.

The other reason may be, just plain tradition in radio building.

Nice to see you here!

Mike

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http://www.peeblesoriginals.com


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:41 am 
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peeblesoriginals wrote:
Thumper,

If you have a gorgeous hot-rod, with an engine that looks and acts
spectacular. . .You just don't put a hood on it.

I think this just about sums up, the reasons for the lack of
enclosures, to some degree.


works for me....the sets I've seen here are amazing...I guess they look cool because they really look like the amazing thing they do...catching electromagnetic waves from far away, and transforming them back into sound...

yeah...


T


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:45 am 
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Location: Western Washington State
These are some pics for one of my "hot-rods":

Image

Image

Image

Enjoy!

Mike

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http://www.peeblesoriginals.com


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